BBC Literacy Project (Edu-Computers)

Camila is super excited about a children’s toy computer and then the girls chat about the BBC Computer Literacy Project from the 70s/80s. They discuss the TV programing which brought the need for it to the eyes of parliamentarians, how it built on previous literacy projects which combined TV shows with adult education curriculums, the creation of the BBC Micro computer and BBC Basic, and the state of computers in the mind of the public at the time. Are we in need of a new Computer Literacy Project for the modern age??

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Main research for the episode was done by Camila. Ana audio edited.
Music by Nelson Guay (SoundCloud: fluxlinkages)
OFtC is a sister project of the Media Archaeology Lab at the University of Colorado at Boulder.  

America Girl tiny computer: https://www.americangirl.com/products/isabel-and-nickis-computer-and-desk-set-for-18-inch-dolls-hnr85 

Research:

- Full BBC Computer Literacy Project archive: https://clp.bbcrewind.co.uk/
- Arthur, Charles. “How the BBC Micro started a computing revolution.” The Guardian, Jan 10, 2012.
- Blyth, Tilly. “Computing for the Masses? Constructing a British Culture of Computing in the Home”. AICT-387, Springer, pp.231-242, 2012, IFIP Advances in Information and Communication Technology
- Blyth, Tilly. “The Legacy of the BBC Micro effecting change in the UK’s cultures of computing.” Nesta, May 2012. https://media.nesta.org.uk/documents/the_legacy_of_bbc_micro.pdf
- “David Bowie predicted in 1999 the impact of the Internet in BBC interview.” Youtube, uploaded by loquenotecuentan, Jan 12, 2016. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaHcOs7mhfU
- Raspberry Pi Forums, The BBC Computer Literacy Project 2012, https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=3102
- “The BBC Computer Literacy Project | The BBC at 100.” Youtube, uploaded by tnmoc, Dec 16, 2022.

Transcript

0:14

Hi, everyone. Welcome to our friend the computer. Hi. This is Ana and Camila on the other side. Um, and, yeah, I don't think we really, really want to do an introduction, so we're not going to. We're getting bratty. We're getting a little bratty, but here we are. Camila is about to start talking about the BBC computer literacy project. Yeah, and, um, but I want to talk about. Yeah, first we first we want to talk about something very fun that you got in the post. Yeah. So I got a tiny computer, you know, the, like, the American girl American girl doll thing, because I was like, So I only knew about American Girl dolls because I worked at the Grove, which is like an outdoor mall in L.A. Many, many years ago. And there was there's like, an American girl doll store there. And so I would, like, walk past them, like, what the hell is this? But, you know, like, I'm Australian, didn't grow up with it, and I know that you're like, you didn't know what Cabbage Patch kids. I didn't really grow up with them either, but I like, had a vague sense. But American Girl dolls are these they're really big like that break three out of them like actual size. They're not actual size like sturdy, you know. Yeah, but dirty girls. It's this dirty girls. They're the dolls that are, like, historical from historical moments. Okay? And they have names and things and stories like they build out like there's, like, books and things around them. And then. So you, like, go get a doll. And then there's, like, a lot of accessories that come with it. But they, they tend to, I think, come in like little sets because like when I grew up, my doll situation was more of like a doll's house sitch. And so it's like really large because the dolls are really large. But yeah, they do like the, like from the Civil War or from like whatever, you know, it's like old, uh, the Victorian era, you know. Yeah, But recently they came out with a historical doll, historical dolls, and the historical period is 1999. I mean, it's true, I know, but it was also like I was aware of it just because it was like, yeah, a lot on, like, social media. You were like, now being like, excuse me. I mean, I don't know how true that is now, but people say like the nineties from us now is the equivalent of like when we were in the nineties, like the sixties. Yeah. Yeah. Time's speeding up. Yeah. But yeah. So I was like just like aware of this that this was going on and that people were upset and, well, you know, like fake. So there were, but then I saw that they had like a, one of the accessory packs was a desk set up and it came with this, a computer. So I'm so from 1999 it's a, it's like a PC and it is like the greatest thing I've ever held in my hands. It's and it's funny because, like, it comes on sale. Oh, I mean, no one else can save it. It's like. So yeah, it's like beginnings of your hand. Yeah, but it's, um, because when I think of a mini cube computer, I think about the small laptops that people get for their carts, and there's, like, videos about it. This is like a PC. This is like a desktop. Yeah. And it's got like a keyboard with buttons that you can press and like a mouse that presses and you can like connect. You have to like, connect the mouse into the keyboard with like a little click. It was just so good and it has a CD drive and floppy disk drive and it comes with a series of floppy disks. Not that they do anything, but you can instead of the the thing that I like about it is that so the screen so it lights up like you put batteries in, it turns on. But the screen it comes with these like transparencies that you can like slide into the into the screen. And at the bottom of them, they have different like cutouts, which you don't see. But I think that that's what's telling the computer, like what sounds it can play for each thing because there's different. So the one that I have just like sitting in it, is this like a it's like American Girl online, but it looks like an AOL, like a version of AOL screen with like a chat and email. And with that one, I think it does like the Internet dial up sound and you've got email and things and then there's other ones that I think each the characters are these like twin girls and Isabella, Nicky and but they have like different personalities. So there's the, I think the seeds of that too, Like they each have a mixtape, like a big CD that they've made. And so one of the slide things that you can put in has like it's like the music. So it has some songs that American Girl made and they like. And I listen to them and I'm like, Oh, this is meant to be Mariah Carey. So this is meant to be Britney Spears. Yeah, so whatever. So it's funny and that's so fun. But what I really like is that they have it's very meta. I know that the whole thing is kind of meta because I think that the I don't really know about American Girl Dolls. Yes. And I think that the girls, these twin Isabelle and Nicky, I think they are American Girl doll like fans because I think some of the other accessory sets have like the books or whatever. But one of the one of the options to put on the screen is the American Girl Doll website, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And some of the sounds like the girls talking. They like get off the like get off the phone. I want to use the internet, you know, things like that. But it's, it's, it's really cute and it really brought back a lot of memories for me. And it's funny because I, I have like a white wooden desk and it's an it comes on a white wooden desk. So I've literally like, put the desk on my desk. It's just sitting there. And then I was like, Oh, I can like put things on this desk. So I have like because there's. Ari it comes with like a landline phone and like a cup alien head like mug. Let me find it. And it has a white highlighter in it. And so it also comes with like a little photo frame with a picture of the two of them. And I'm thinking of maybe putting a picture of us inside it. Yeah, Yeah, you should. But then I was like, Oh, I have like a tiny lip balm. And I just like because I like, like put it on the desk. So I'm kind of also using that it's functional. You are the American girl. Camila I am. But it's funny because I was looking it up like online a little bit and I saw an eBay that in, I think 1996, they came out with a a macintosh computer. But at the time it was like under the I don't know if they still have I don't think they still have this. But it was like American Girl doll today. Mm hmm. So it was like of the era. So it's interesting to see now, like, what they're making in, like, a retrospective. Well, yeah, it's really good. I know, I know. I make sense for it to be better because it's like, why would you not have your own marketing in wherever you are able to put it in? Yeah. And it's just yeah, I think particularly the like the CD is and the floppy, the floppy disks, I really like the new ones. Like X is so cute. Yeah. It's nice as well that the screen slides are like different keys. It's just, it's just great. And the fact that it's like a battery powered computer, I don't know. It's just like, make things as simple as possible. And like, low electricity usage is really good quality, I have to say. And then I talked to some other people not to be too like, I'm very glad that I talked to some friends who grew up with American girls. And I think the vibe is that it's like this is this set is like $150 if you buy it. Oh, yeah, The toys are expensive. Like good quality toys. Yeah. And it is really good quality. Yeah. And it comes with stickers that you can I like stuck some stickers on of course. But yeah, it just and it's also kind of nice to have this sort of tech history. Yeah. Um, being reticent to move you very, like, girl related, you know, it's. Yeah, it's kind of showing how girls use the computer now that there's a difference, like how boys and girls are using it, but it's just nice to, like, see a representation of it. And it's especially from what we talked about last time with One Laptop Per Child, how that was like all aimed at the precocious boy. And actually, you know, girls use the computers as much as boys did. I mean, it's not like, oh, let's like use a HTML to update like your pet's home page by page or whatever. You know, it's not like I was. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm using that as an example for my own life. But I guess the this computer, it's like, oh, using chat, using AOL, like, yeah, the web making. I'm just like looking at them now, making mix CDs and things, but it's just like it's nice to have that represented. And also like thinking of this as being portrayed as this historical thing, like a historical represent nation and like younger girls actually being able to see that we were using the computer and I like that you hear like their voices sometimes in the sounds and just showing like how integrated technology actually was at that point, even though it, you know, it's like you could turn it off like if you wanted to get on the phone. But yeah, it's very it's, it's it's very strange. So like, I'm on the computer and then I look at that computer and it's like AOL kind of like, like you're looking into history. I'm like, haunted. Anyway, I was very happy that they said right past, and I'm thrilled. Yeah, that's very cool. But it was fun to kind of like, think about that and about, like kids using the computer. Especially like with our current season of the, like, edgy computers and, you know, computers in schools and things. Yeah. So tell me about yeah, tell me about this project. When did it start? Yeah. So the the BBC computer literacy project we've touched on a little bit because we talked about the Doomsday Project, which was essentially like built on top of the computer literacy project. And I know that it's like Edu Computers series has been more like children based and I am going to sort of focus on that a little bit. But this, this literacy project was for everyone, you know, it was the idea was actually it was more for adults. And I think that like a lot of the projects that we've talked about on the show, both like the EDU computers and the pre-Internet networks like came from governments, but also this like period of realization around the late seventies that computers were needing to be taken quite seriously as a future force and also like a new industry. MM And I guess with this fear it was, it was also this fear of being behind as a country and like not being able to easily catch up with other countries and of losing like a prominent position in a world that may be shifting where like the power dynamics are shifting. And I feel like, you know, we, we definitely this definitely came up with with Militao in France and also even like the informatization of society with Japan and governments kind of seeing that this like this shift, this these things happening like, oh, we need to like make decision part and yeah, and like teach to have a society that can like actively participate in this and maybe even build infrastructure around it that's like from within the country rather than like importing things. Yeah. And I do feel like with the ABC Literacy Project, it's like the UK has been so used to, you know, as a colonizing force, colonizing nation to be of use to this idea of being out ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It, it reminds me a little bit of like when you talk about the UK specifically what that attitude was of this like fear of computers and this interconnectedness, but also this like fascination and this need to want to like, harness that power. It's, it, it reminds me of of David Bowie, like that famous interview when he's explaining to a very skeptical looking interviewer that the Internet is changing the music industry forever, that the Internet is demystifying music and kind of making the audience much more of a participatory element rather like rave culture. And then he goes on to say that we're just at the cusp of what it will do to society, what the Internet will do to society, both good and bad. And he's like, It's could be it's something unimaginable, exhilarating and terrifying. And the interviewer is like at he goes, he, he goes, Well, they said the same thing about telephones. You know, the government said the same thing about telephones and the Internet. I mean, isn't it just a tool? And Bowie says, no, it's an alien life form. Like, God, it's amazing. It's such a good interview. And he's so eloquent, like really expressing this, this fear and fascination of what it's going to what is going to happen with it. And he also, like Drew comparisons between what the Internet has done to the public psyche, from what was what the public psyche was in the seventies versus to what it was, what it is now, which and now points to 1999, where it changed from people having these, like, singular beliefs to being constantly exposed to like dualities and multiple claims and just that there's a different side to every story. And I guess we'll also talk about that, right, Because it's like part of your the like the BBC literacy project is is started in the seventies. No. And I guess the concept of it. Yeah. The like start of the development of it. Yeah. Late seventies. Yeah. But I think it's kind of if you like was able to express the kind of atmosphere of like that time in the nineties when, when people were quite scared but also intrigued. I mean that idea of like that, it's an alien life form that it's kind of um, it's, it, it would change everything. Like it's not just changing this like one thing, it changes the way that people think and stuff. I saw the your name June Pike. Yeah I there's a documentary out at the moment. It's really, really good I've seen a couple of times, but it so so his they're like father of video Oh TV TV I guess and he it I, I was just trying to look at my I made some notes and I saw it and I can't remember exactly but it was saying that he like coined the phrase like information superhighway or like electronics superhighway or something. So they were talking about that And then and that he had sort of he would say that like, oh, in the in the future, the the TV guide will be as long as the New York phone book. Hmm. Thinking that like everybody would have their own like TV station, which is essentially kind of what happened with YouTube and like content creating and things. But then later they said someone was like, Oh, he called me up at 2 a.m., which was normal if you were like in his inner circle. And he was like, No, I just had this like realization that it's not a highway, it's you're in a boat in like the lost in the ocean and that, yeah, this guy that was being interviewed saying that it was saying like, oh yeah, he like could see what the internet that is what the internet is. You're kind of like in this mass of information without direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really good. I love these analogies that are given by these like a virtuoso artist creative, because that is, that is their jobs is to kind of express these very abstract difficult things to communicate in in, in different mediums. Yeah, that's cool. I love it. So like thinking about this kind of fear, like this project was started out of fear. Fear mongering, I guess. So like in 1978, there was a like a TV special broadcast on the BBC and the BBC is like the British Broadcasting Corporation. So it's yeah, but it's like PBS in the United States. I think it's like we have a we have ABC in Australia, Australian Broadcasting Corporation. But so they did this like TV special broadcast, I think it was on a show that happened to that like did these like specials and things. But it was essentially it was like an examination of the then new silicon chip industry and it was called now the chips are down, which are these amazing names. But what the show kind of really was was a warning to the future. And also very much sort of disparaging the government, I guess, and saying that they weren't doing anything. So kind of making the the people feel like, oh, my God, everything's going to change and the government's not doing anything. Mm hmm. So a quote from the show I did watch it was inside here is a Silicon chip with with all the important components of a computer etched onto its tiny surface. It's called a microprocessor. Such chips will totally, totally revolutionize our way of life. They're the reason why Japan is abandoning its shipbuilding and why our children will grow up with no jobs to go to. It's like, so intense. It's it's it sounds like classic English TVs scare scaremongering like yeah they've they like they've made so many shows about yeah you know look at all these unhealthy people like living bad lives or yeah it's just it's like a classic content model for for like early British TV. It's really bad and it like goes through all of these industries and jobs that they say are going to be completely changed by this like new mysterious silicon chip. They do they do give to examples of industries that had already been completely shattered by the chip. But there are two industries that I hadn't really thought about, which is the watch industry and the calculator industry, which is where we get the digital watch and the pocket calculator. But I never really thought about the fact that that that was like such a shattering time for those industries. I mean, idea also didn't really think about the fact that that non computerized calculators existed it was like a machine kind of that you like typed in and like pulled a thing. I've seen those in cartoons because I like aware of advocacies and stuff, but I just hadn't really thought about the fact that, yeah, so but the show says that that these industries like didn't think that the chip would affect them and they were just kind of like, oh no, whether like Swiss Swiss watches the Swiss watch company like people are so and then it like those industries just died. Yeah. And they say that like even something that you'd think is difficult for a robot. The example they give is spray painting. A chair can be destroyed so they show like a man spray painting a chair with a machine. And then they're like, Oh, he only has to do it once because now, quote, His skill has been absorbed into the machine. And then they say robots do everything except take a tea break like it's so ominous. And then some other quite spooky that they say is like automation can affect everyone. Automation is coming to every office from factory and shop. People involved in this technology are concerned about the future to build. This will be condemning a generation to unemployment. I mean, like it made me scared. Yeah, I was like, Oh no, my job. But then at the end they had a panel discussion with experts and I think that's like not something they would normally do on the show, but I don't know. They did it and it really showed these like two sides. It's like a fork in the road moment for Britain. It was like, do we go fully into chips and automation where our world completely changes, Everyone loses their jobs and our kids have no future, or do we ignore it and get completely left behind and taken over by the rest of the world and I guess the idea was that the government had been basically ignoring this changing landscape and ignoring this question entirely. And the show was like really scary and influential. Apparently it was played in parliament or to parliamentarians, and it ended up leading to a government commission alongside BBC Education, which created a micro electrics report. And in a recent in a talk, David Alan, who was involved in the project and also involved in this report, said that they they went to quote Germany where they learned that they were calling the chip the job killer Sweden, where they found factories using robots, Japan where they found automatic factories, and America, where they talk to people in academia. And the eventual report suggested the development of a public education program for computer literacy and also to kind of democratize technology that was mentioned a few times, but like it was sort of based on they had previously done a project that was an adult literacy project on the BBC, which was 72 to 76, and it was to like help adults learn to read. And they had a educational TV series starring Bob Hoskins that I think I haven't watched any of it, but it sounds like it's like a sitcom about to is called On the Move. And it was a it was a sitcom about like two moving men, right? And one of them couldn't read and the other was like helping him. So it was kind of like dealing with the stigma of not being able to read and then giving help. And then I think that was like a, you know, no, outside of the TV show, they had like a curriculum. I would I much like help people. So they already had this like that finished in 76. Right. And this was taught basically just like through TV, through TV and then I think like adult education centers. Oh, okay. But they launched the computer literacy project in 1982, and it really started with an emphasis on more programing, like now the chips are down, I think, because they needed to like they need probably needed more time to build out, build stuff out. So they started with like TV programing. And in one of the shows called Managing the Micro, they say managing the micro was about managing change. And it really was like the message of these shows is like, okay, things are going to change. All these jobs are going to be obsolete. Don't freak out like it's going to be okay. And the first four TV series were called the Computer Program, making the Most of the Micro, which was a sort of follow up to that computers in control, which was about robotics and the electronic office. Hmm. It's it's interesting that yeah, just going back to the TV thing, it's interesting that TV was the main vehicle for these learning activities. I, I wonder if perhaps they were trying to target an audience that was maybe like economically a bit passive, like unemployed folk or stay at home parents or like retirees. I think these shows were being broadcast in like primetime time, so like outside of your office hours. But it was I think it was more just trying to affect society. Yeah, as much as in general because it was learning about how to use computers, but it was also trying to make sure people weren't scared. Yeah, and just like informing the public and the best vehicle for that was, was TV's. Yeah. And it wasn't going to be this like niche thing. Yeah. It was like some book you have to get. Yeah. So all of these programs like the original one we talked about was Yeah. Demonstrating the ways in which society in life and work were already changing with computers and they often showed examples from other parts of the world. And then they also sort of showed viewers how they could make changes in their own lives or how computers could help them in what they currently do and how not to be scared of that. So the computer program started with this intro. Well, the world of computers can seem a very unfriendly jungle to the uninitiated, but it doesn't have to be like that During the course of this series, one of the things I shall be doing is finding out what ordinary people, non-experts like you and I need to know about what they call information technology. One thing I know already, the computer revolution isn't happening tomorrow. It's happening now. I, I have to say that it's interesting that they made such an emphasis on trying to make people not scared of what's to come, especially when it's to do with technology and automation. Because it's important to note that the UK is also the birthplace of the Luddite movement, which we talked to a little bit about before, but it's basically an alliance of workers in the mills and the factories that were revolting together against like dangerous factory tools and technologies that were being implemented at the time, which was I think like the 1800s. And so yeah, it's funny that maybe the UK government was trying to avoid another chain of events like this by by assuring the public that these changes were okay and in fact maybe even beneficial to them. But yeah, I mean there is a big focus on like the factories. Yeah. And I guess that's also connected with like the unions and that all of these jobs could be taken over by robots that don't have like it said in the thing, they do everything but take a tea break like they don't have the demands and the needs that that humans deserve and have to do these jobs. Yeah, no, I think it's really important to to kind of think about the historical context of of the UK's Luddite movement, which was so strong and very effective and very successful and also just very important for the way that we are able to consume and work with technology Now. Otherwise, I think we'd all be pretty screwed. So yeah, it's, it's yeah, Well anyway, well, what's interesting about this program that I think you picked up on in that quote was that it's hosted specifically this one was hosted by a character of a man who was like completely naive to computers, which was, I think, very useful for the audience because that's who they're targeting. But then it also gives us like a real insight into the everyday perception of computers at the time. So the idea was that there was like this guy that was just had was like, What's going on with the world? Like there's even a section in the first episode where he goes through a pile of magazines and complains about all the computer advertisements. He's like, You may have seen these ads for microcomputers, and you're like, Why are there so many ads? Like, What's going on? You know, they're everywhere but the stuff. Wow. So someone that was quite ignorant, I wonder if that was. Yeah, they're condescending to people that well, the thing is they had they had him and then they had an expert. So it was essentially like this guy asking questions of the expert or being like, oh, I thought that this, this. So like, it's not for me. And then the expert would like, explain, okay, yeah, this is dramatic. So then I guess, yeah, it was kind of like playacting. I mean, I don't know how naive the actual presenter was that, you know, it's all scripted, but that was the vibe. It was like, okay, let's like meet people where they're at. And some of the other shows were more advanced and after the computer program they did managing the micro, which I think was definitely more advanced. And this particular show, which was the first one, is basically just trying to set people up in a way that they're not super scared. Like before The quote I just said, he he like goes into a computer store and this like an unfriendly guy helping him. He's like, I want one of these newfangled computers. And the guy starts asking him all these questions with like tech tech terms he has no idea about. And he's like, Oh, okay, maybe I'll just leave, you know? So it's sort of saying like, okay, like you can take control and yeah, it's not. Yeah. And just like these everyday confrontations that are just very useful for people to know. Yeah, cool. Because I feel like people have this like a real fear of computers both like what they, what they were going to do for the future and their jobs, but also just not understanding how they worked in any way scared of even just like being with a computer. They in one of the shows, I watched a bunch of these shows that they're all archived by the by the BBC. There was someone talking about teaching people and how scared like about computers in the classroom and how scared everyone was. Everyone was that they were going to blow up the computer by saying the wrong thing. And so they would the first thing that she would get to do is just like go on a computer and just start typing things and just doing whatever and showing that like they're not going to destroy the computer by saying the wrong thing. Yeah, you still get that now with when you were when I used to give tutorials to people, it would be like, you know, you can, you can literally just like type and do whatever you want with this software. It's fine. Just you can just close the tab and then get back to it like nothing bad is going to happen. The people are always very, very scared to like click on the wrong thing or typing in the wrong thing when they first use a software that is very alien to them. I feel like I would even feel like that if it was if it maybe not software, but like a computer. Because with the with these microcomputers it's it's basically it's like programing, you know, and you have to like load something like load, you know, and things like that. You want to break it. Yeah. Without computers it's if I had no idea and someone was like, kid just go on this computer and click things and I feel like I would break things. So yeah, yeah, totally. But yeah, it's funny. It's like this very instinctual fear, I think. Well, it's because it's like all behind the scenes. Yeah. You know, if you're, if you're given like a game, like a physical game or a puzzle or something that's like working out like a mini American doll computer. Yes. You know, it's like you're not so scared because you can it's like tactile, but with computers, it's not. And that was so new. Yeah. At the time. And so these shows also, like had segments of, like hands on activities that encouraged people to, like, get their hands on a computer. So it would be like little demonstrations or tutorials or of or things. And because the BBC Education Department had preexisting structures from the adult literacy project, they had this like network of integration schools and adult education. They were also, you know, in the field and developing corresponding course materials and things like that. David Allen's talk, he listed the components of the project, which he said was over 15 television and radio series from 79 to 87 programing courses, books, help lines and fact sheets and software, including tele software, which was software transmittable via teletext, which is cool just from our previous episodes as it. But the other part of the computer literacy project was a computer itself, and I always found it so weird before I went into the research of this that like the BBC had like made a computer. Yeah, because there is because there a TV station. Yeah. But knowing all of this now, it kind of makes sense. Like they needed a they were trying to teach people they needed this like standard computer that people would be able to use. Yeah, but what I thought was interesting was that it was kind of a conservative Thatcher government that pushed the creation of this because they came into power in 79 and this computer came out in 82. Yeah, well, that kind of makes sense because Thatcher was pushing people to drive out of work from the labor industries and then trying to instead focus on people working in the informational, bureaucratic forms of production. So yeah, the switch the switch was very intentional and the industry switch was very intentional. So I can imagine they were into developing this, this computer. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, this computer was, is produced by ACORN computers and it would eventually become the main computers in schools in the UK at the time by 1983 it was 85% of primary schools and 65% of secondary schools had one of these BBC micros and they originally produced 12,000, but they eventually sold more than 1.5 million. Wow. I'm not sure if that sold or I think when it goes into the schools, it's like the government is giving them for free. But they also sold to like homes and yeah, like shaped. Yeah, yeah. Distributed. And some of the money that they made from the hardware actually went into funding the 1985 Domesday Project. So yeah. Nice link there I guess. Yeah. I mean it was old. The Doomsday Project was all done on the BBC, on BBC Michael's. And the thing about the BBC Micro was that it was designed with like the learner in mind, whether that be an adult or a school student, like it wasn't specifically for schools and it was actually originally aimed at adult education. So then it became like super popular in the classroom because it had this corresponding curriculum and these TV shows and, and this push from the government, but it had that I actually think that the the strong integration in schools is what probably allowed it to survive the like 85 computer crash because it kept it was popular for years after that, but because it was like in all of all of the schools and everything and it had all this like learning stuff around it. It was still a really popular computer, Like they were showing the value of it, I guess, and it was government backed. So yeah, so before the BBC Micro, there wasn't really a computer that was suitable for people to learn on in this way. And this machine was in part designed by educators. So the team talk to educators and made a list of things that would be good to have in an educational computer. And then they took that list to different companies. And then Acorns Prototype was like the most successful and the most ready. I think this sort of there's more of a story to this and it's like they a code was a really small company and the BBC came calling. It was like we'll be there on Monday to see it. And they just spent like a whole weekend creating a computer from scratch that was meeting of the specifications. And then the BBC came like, Great, it's awesome. And it was just like, We haven't slept in for a But by this point, a lot of the the programing on TV and the demonstrations were centered around the BBC microcomputers. Specifically at the start it was sort of general and then it was just this. So despite the fact that they were like many, many other microcomputers on the market at the time, and so once they started kind of going into production, they were releasing print advertisements with text and that read like important notice to all microcomputer purchases. In September 1981, the new BBC microcomputer goes into production. It will be available by mail or by the end of October. We believe that this computer will far outperform any other machine at a remotely comparable price. It's basically just being like, Don't buy anything now. Wait, wait, wait, wait. And though we talked about educational, when we when we talk about education, computers, I guess the original idea for this was that it would be educational, but particularly in like learning to use a computer, it later was used for, you know, different programs and and, you know, it was a useful tool to learn other things. But the idea at the start was that it was like teaching people to use a computer. I guess also like the World Wide Web wasn't really around. Oh, yeah, Yeah, exactly. Yeah. At the time this was programing. Yeah. And programing with basic. And I love this quote from one of the TV programs I was. I suppose the most daunting thing about computers is this thing of communicating with them. There's the machine, and I'm supposed to talk to it? I say talk, but it's more a matter of writing it, little notes, you type little memos into it. Of course, there's a large number of what computer people call languages. They don't say much Like any language we humans speak. That's really good. It's more like no note taking than a language. Yeah, writing it. Little notes kind of, because that's what it was. You know, it's just like text on the screen and then you would like type in and you would load programs and things. So basic stands for Beginners or purpose symbolic instruction code. And it was a programing language that had a lot of dialects. But the BBC project needed a standardized language so they could teach people and to integrate it into the BBC Micro. So the BBC government and industry worked together to develop what I've seen listed as basic. ABC adopted basic for computers. But then any other time I saw a reference to it, it was called BBC Basic. So I'm presuming it's the same. It's the same thing. I don't know. Yeah, the BBC basic was I just want to note it was written by Sophie Wilson, who was one of the first trans women pioneers in computer science. And yeah, like she built the acorn proton, which was like a prototype. Yeah, that was the prototype. Exactly. They were working on that, then got rebranded or, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It was like a microcomputer prototype that enabled ACORN to win the contract with the BBC for the Computer Education Project. And. Yeah, and it worked. And the proton then became the micro which you, which you said, but it was then led by Wilson. For the next 15 years, the ACORN computers, the micro the micro although my oh my her Yeah yeah yeah. And she also wrote like the manuals and everything the specs for it because she knew that communication was key and that people were genuinely interested in what was happening behind the scenes of a computer. Yeah. And I just think that's really interesting that she was so keen to get involved with the kind of communication parts because people were. Yeah, just like genuinely wanting to know the, the literacy of it I think is very different, very different attitude that people have today. But yeah, and I think that that was so important for like the BBC Literacy Project and I wonder if it would have been as successful if they had gone with like another company. Yeah. Like Sinclair or something, you know, and because it was like I'm kind of coming to it from the BBC side of things. But yeah, like I said, this whole story of like ACORN computers and, and their importance because they went ahead and, you know, there were like multiple versions of the micro and then there were kind of like other ones after that that they like creating, um, like interesting computers. But the BBC develops this like very successful adult education course to learn the programing language of BBC Basic. And like a lot of books, including one called Throw Our Basic, which I think might be the curriculum for the adult education course, but you could just buy the book and it, like so many people, learned basic with that. And then there are also a lot of educators that were creating their own software that was used then used in the classroom, which was really, I like that too. Yeah. So the project officially ended in 1989 and I think it was largely due to like a changing computer climate. It had shifted to sort of personal computers by this point and versus like the microcomputer and the like, just like the basic programing of it. And I think also like the initial computer freak out had sort of passed a bit and maybe the BBC had some budget cuts and things. So the project was kind of phased out. There's a there's a lot of information. Hmm. Is kind of a lot of information on this. Like the BBC did an archive like a beautiful archive project on this and have a timeline. And then I was watching a lot of talks and, and looking at some academic articles and things, but it's all sort of the same story. Like each time there's like bits that I feel like I'm maybe missing from the story because there's like an official history of it that everyone's using and, and it's so much based on the like now the chips are down and yeah, you know, everything changing. It's, it's very interesting beginning there's very little about the end Yeah yeah yeah. And we often I think talk about projects that end up failing in various ways and and the reasons for the reasons for that failure, whether it be like lack of government support or like a, you know, shifting to more corporate stuff or you know, that this was by all accounts like incredibly successful and it really facilitated that awkward early computer phase for a large portion of the country. I will say that the computers were expensive. In an article I saw, it said around 700 to£800 in like current money. So it's not like everybody was able to purchase it. It was good. Those in other schools, but the TV programing was free. So even without the like learning to code aspect, I think just like the prolonged dedication to primetime discussion of this changing landscape of computers must have had a real impact on society. Yeah, And so, like, their goal was to have a computer literate society and have people not be like super scared of it. And I'm sure that this. Yeah, like it was. Yeah. Like bringing that object physically into these, into, into learning spaces is, must have been extremely impactful. Yeah. I think also sometimes like projects just end because these things have just like served their purpose and Yeah and I think in this case that was it as well. Like it doesn't mean that something must have failed or something must have happened but like the fact that it had just served its purpose and there doesn't need to be like a newer version or an adjusted version, it's just it's just over. And that's that's good. That's a good thing. Yeah. In 1992, so really, only a few years after it ended, there was a another TV special looking back at the BBC Computer Literacy Project and was called the Trojan Mouse. I watched it and I it's called that because there was a teacher that was talking about how the computer would just like sit in the back of the room, but it had so much importance. And, and so it was like, I like a mouse in the corner of the room, but like Trojan in the tens of like it was filled with all of this stuff and things. But there was a quote in that that was saying information technology has undergone a revolution since the early days of the micro. Now thousands of software applications exist, which effectively keep the computer programing languages hidden from users. Concern is growing that the new generation of computer users don't have a basic understanding of how a computer program works. Is now the time for a new UK wide computer literacy project? And it was bringing me back to thinking about the discussion we had a few episodes ago about that tick tock that I saw saying that like young people now have a really low computer literacy ability because they were never actually taught to use a computer or like how a computer really functions, how to like, troubleshoot. They just a lot of the stuff we get now is it just like works and you don't get to see the back end. But for our generation, which is only like the next generation, the like before that we at least like had to we had a bit of time with the sort of early tech. Yeah, that and that you, you work with this person. I think the tick tock was a someone that worked at like a university in I.T. And the stuff that he was getting from people. Like what? Like why? Yeah, no, for sure. It's such a, it's a serious thing. I think if we're talking about the UK, it seems it's also just the demise of education here, like where there's now such a disparity between public and private schools than there ever was before, and children can be really quite demotivated or unexposed to kind of computer literacy due to the right distribution of funding to schools that yeah, they will just, they will just by default turn to tick tock instead. I don't know. I see that happening a lot. Yeah. No, there was a Guardian article from 2012 that was about the BBC. My career, like looking back on it and there was someone that grew up with it, like in the classroom, and they had him quoted as saying, Ironically, programing is much harder to get into now for kids and others. It's a weird combination of things. Back then, every machine came with basic or similar programing was a much bigger part of the experience. I also think that there was less to learn and the machines were less abstract. You could just set bits to draw on the screen. Now you have layer upon layer of abstraction to get through. Yeah. Again, something Sophie Wilson was saying that there was such an interest in computers because it was actually just quite simple and it did just and yeah, like there was a, there weren't so many layers back then as there are now. I mean, I was even this reminded me of like my joy of HTML when I was younger, like I loved it and I got really into it and I would make like little websites and, and things. And then at some point I tried to get into other types of coding and like, now I can do like CSS and stuff. But at some point I was doing, I think very early, like code Academy courses and things and I was into it, but it didn't give me the joy that aged HTML gave me and like the ease and things. And yeah, it's HTML is amazing and I really miss it. And this sort of feels like that. It's like, yeah, the early stuff was sort of more simple and more direct. And now, yeah, even if there's ways to things, it's just like the whole ecosystem of a computer is like, wildly larger. Yeah, Yeah. There was this like, mysterious 2012 reinvigoration of the idea of like a new BBC computer literacy project, which was apparently called BBC. Hello World. But I don't know if this is real because it was referred to on Wikipedia, like I saw it referred to on Wikipedia and on some forums and apparently there was a website at some point on Wikipedia. It links to Wayback Machine recordings of the website and I tried to find them, but even the Wayback Machine versions like they're not they don't exist. Like I click it and it's like the domain isn't there or whatever it was apparently something that was like folk meant to be focused on Raspberry Pi, and there's a Raspberry Pi Forum thread where people were discussing it at the time because it was like rumored and it may have been a hoax. There seems like there was like somebody that was maybe a teacher or involved in some way that had previously suggested that there was going to be some like unrelated thing that was going on. Actually, it wasn't. And what he was doing was like trying to get people's support so that maybe it would happen. And so when he started talking about this project, people were like, Oh, maybe it's not a real thing. But then there was a website, there was a website with information, but it was like, I think the domain was it belonged to someone that wasn't like it wasn't like a proper government domain. And then they yeah, yeah. And then they were saying that like, oh, maybe it's just a really early BBC plan that was leaked and then scrapped. Like it wasn't meant to have been uploaded because by all accounts the site had like spelling errors and things like that. Yeah, but people got excited about it for a short period of time and then nothing ever happened. And it's interesting to think about like, what if it's needed and like what a new literacy project would look like, but also I just don't know if, like, people don't watch TV in that way anymore. Know, and there's so many like there's very little like public ways of absorbing information like that. Yeah, like it would be nice, but I don't know if it would have the, like, massive effects and shifts on society. Yeah. Do we really need to learn how computers can integrate into class? I mean, the closest thing is maybe the like chat bot stuff at the moment. Yeah, I see. Like that the next year the new fear, like it's not computers anymore. It's. Yeah, yeah, totally. I just find it interesting when you were talking about the raspberry pies because I do see those in schools a lot and it's kind of fascinating because it would have gone sort of back to this like chip thing where schools tried to demystify the big, scary or small chip that the media was so afraid of in the seventies. Right. And I mean, yeah, raspberry pies are more like motherboard, but they kind of work in similar way. So if there's a fun little like full circle visual here. Yeah. I mean computer literacy is kind of it's like how to use computer and how to get it to work for you and things like that. But it's also a bit of this now, at least like learning the motivations behind Total Thing. So even just thinking about I mean, I've just been tick tock a lot lately, but I think I saw something of someone that was like a a writer, and she was like, Oh, like if you want, you can use AI to, to like, give you advice on your writing. Yeah. So it was like put in like a example from like the first chapter from like an actual published book that's really good. And then like, put in your art and then get advice. And then I think she got in trouble of people in the comments were saying like, don't put your like information into this machine. Like it's only going into the thing, you know, just kind of like learning sort of safety or you know how things are being you how information is being used and, you know, like Netsafe did get stuff, I guess. I mean, when I like when I brought out the chap with thing, I was thinking more like, oh, I see people talking about like, oh, how can this be useful in your day to day life? Oh, it can like make a meal plan for you or it can like plan your trip or it can work out your schedule. But you're right that it's like there is also this massive discussion at the moment about the jobs that it's going to take or if it's just quite ironic to see that when Thatcher first kind of like pushed for the BBC Micro to be introduced and Bush pushed for these like white collar jobs to be more popular and like was was obviously sacrificing labor jobs for that, it was to generate more like jobs that would just like shuffle around papers and do bullshit jobs, right, like bureaucratic jobs and stuff. And now computers have like advanced so much that actually AI has kind of come into the the frame and is reducing the amount of bureaucratic jobs because now AI is writing the cover letters for us or it's like, you know, it's hacking out. It's it's reading our cover letter. Yeah, exactly. It's reading our cover letters. It's like hacking out all of these jobs that were first introduced for computers and with with computers. But then we're having to learn how to, like, negotiate. You know, it's like I'm, you know, writing a cover letter or résumé, and it's like, oh, no, you have to like, do they said yes to get past the robot? Like, that's true. To get to. Yeah. It's like it's just shifting one type of bureaucracy to another type of bureaucracy. Yeah. And shutting it on to it, I believe, rather than the job. Yeah. You know. Yeah. I don't know how much I believe in this narrative of like AI is just going to get rid of all of the useless crap in our lives. Well, yeah, that's what they said about computers. That's what they said about computers and, like, copy and all these things. And it's basically AI or like, charge is just another form of just slightly faster copy and pasting and Google searching. Yeah. I mean, I wonder how much you know, that first show now the chips are down and it, it talking about you know like all of these like children won't have jobs to go to and and this just I wonder how much of that really like came true. I mean, it shifted quickly, but in a way also sort of slowly enough that like, yeah you can look at the job landscape now and say that it's so different to what it was in the seventies. Yeah, but that's also for like lots of other reasons and not just computers and it's not even computers, it's specifically the chip. Yeah. And, and like the smaller scale. Yeah. And then also like robots and automation, that was the thing that they were really scared about. So like that has had an effect. But yeah, it's not like the robots do absolutely everything and there's no jobs anymore. Yeah, but you know, that's what the informatization of society was, you know, with Japan that it was trying to, Yeah. Shift jobs away from like the factories and into the sort of like information landscape, the shift of industries. All right. Well that was fun too. Yeah. So I, I been kind of wanting to dive into the BBC computer literacy project for a while. It was intimidating because there is just like a standard history of it and there's so much as well. I wanted to do a whole episode about BBC Basic, but I think we've pretty much covered everything I wanted to say and I mean, I'd be interested in I mean, we've talked about doing a feature season on programing languages, but I did learn a bit about basic and then the idea of the like different dialects and, you know, it was essentially like the first sort of programing language. And I think something about the BBC Micro was that was also really fast. It was like one of the fastest computers. So you could like type something in and get the result quickly. So you didn't need a mouse, you just needed your keyboard. Sometimes I really do think about like how hardware has affected languages. The way that they're written, because with BBC Basic you would just type something, press enter next line. It would like capture that and then you just keep writing just by like writing and then pressing, enter space and all that. But now with programing languages like React, it's starts from the middle and then like pulls out and you're kind of always going back and forth between all the lines and you know, you obviously need a mouse for that. So I just it's quite interesting to see this in program is that like pride themselves on being able to just just use the keyboard and they like have different like shortcuts like I don't use a mouse. Yeah same with like video editing or anything like that. You could do everything shortcuts, but and it's definitely easier and better to do that and you have to be very skilled to do that. But yeah, I mean, the mouse is something that has aided and changed interfaces and languages and. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, no, that was amazing. Thank you so much. What a what a fabulous coming along on the right explanation of it. Very clear. Very good. Yeah. If you want to look at some of this stuff, it's all like the BBC. Have an archive of it online and so many of the shows and it's really fun to um. I spent a long time just watching these shows. It's really, it's really interesting. I love that to a good lives apart from all the fire stuff they that lines, but that's fun to write. Well for entertainment purposes we'll talk to you all next time. Yeah. Thank you. Bye bye.